A question about some English pronunciations

[nktvn]

I hear most Americans pronounce QUESTION like (roughly) kwes-CHion and in fact this is indicated in my dictionary, but I looked up CONSCIOUS and saw that there is only one way to pronounce it, that is, kon-SHious but here in the US I've always heard kon-CHious, just as kon-she-en-CHious (conscientious). I'm not sure if I heard them correctly. How do you pronounce these words? Do you say REPTILE like REP-TILE, or REP-TLE ?

Thanks.

[bschuess]

Hi NKT

You have a good ear. You will hear both pronunciations of "conscious". A better student of regional speech patterns might be able to provide more order to the situation. In my experience, the "correct" pronunciation is more common. As you know, we are a nation of immigrants and I think a group's native language affects their treatment of English. Since immigrant groups often cluster together, different cities or areas can develop different pronunciations.

I say REP-TILE, but have certainly heard REP-TLE. Aussie friends, is this a Brit and Aussie thing? This is definitely a case of R.D., reptile dysfunction.

[giotbuon]

This is definitely a case of R.D., reptile dysfunction.

Oh Bob... :D


To answer your question NKT. For me and people that I know (with a Californian accent) - we'd say kon-CHious and REP-TILE. I guess it is just a matter of tomato or toMAHto ...

[nb]

I'd think it's more a matter of people that pronounce words correctly... and seemingly increasing groups of people who are capable of pronouncing them correctly (English being their main language) but are perpetuating the incorrect and bizarre pronunciations of words causing them to become a 'mainstream' way to pronounce them... and then there are the people who have a valid reason to have difficulty with certain words due to English not being their original and main language. That's my two cents worth atleast.

* I highlight letters below to draw your attention to the bits I'm modifying, not to infer that you are meant to over-pronounce or emphasise those parts.

So starting with 'conscientious'. I think the reason why the end might be pronounced with a CH instead of a SH sound would be because people would be reading the word as they say it (or picturing it in their mind) and as they do they realise that they have pronounced the 'sc' as SH and as they get to the 't' they think they are meant to pronounce it somehow that isn't SH... and so say it something like con-SHee-ent-CHee-us. My opinion is that it should be something like con-she-en-shee-us, but perhaps I'm one of the people perpetuating a bad pronunciation.

All I can say it that you don't pronounce 'caption' as cap-CHee-on or even cap-CHon, but instead you pronounce it cap-SHee-on or cap-SHon. Same with 'intention' and 'flatulation' and 'spatious'... My goodness, someone show me somewhere where it says that 'spatious' is pronounced spay-CHee-us!

Now for 'conscious'. I say it's pronounced like con-she-us or when being lazy then just con-shus. I suspect that the original way was supposed to have a hint of an 's' sound earlier so like conS-she-us, and then as people got lazy it became con-she-us without the earlier 's' sound, and then more laziness to finally just con-shus. I think that the pronunciation of it as con-CHus must have originated from people with bad accents (not necessarily foreigners) or probably more likely from small groups of people who didn't know they were saying it wrong who then perpetuated bad pronunciation onto the next generation and then more people heard it said wrong and so continued the cycle until no-one knows how to say a word the way it is supposed to be said anymore.

I can not imagine a sane world where the combination of 'scious' could be pronounced starting with a CH sound. Even without the 's' and just 'cious' is pronounced as SHus. How about the word 'precious'... it's pre-SHus and not pre-CHus! Now I can't stand the movie Lord Of The Rings, but even I know that Gollum doesn't say "My preeeeeeCHussss!" he says "My preeeeeeSHussss"

Reptile.... Anyone who has ever played Mortal Kombat 2 or later knows that it's pronounced rep-tile. How does one even pronounce it like rep-tle? Is that like the ending of Pterodactyl? Now FINISH HIM!!! :D

I'm a white Australian adult male (who hates Lord Of The Rings) if that helps to give you some perspective on all that I have just said about pronunciation etc. Wow this post got really long really fast. GO TEAM!

Cheers y'allllllllll. hehe :twisted:

[bschuess]

Hey nb

I got nothing to offer.

I come from a country whose President pronounces "nuclear" as "newk-you-lur". And the problem is, after you hear him say it enough times, you begin to doubt your own pronunciation. I had to call a friend to get their feedback on how I was saying it. I couldn't even hear myself any more.

Don't even get started. It's like hearing a bad ad jingle and not being able to get it out of your head.

[nb]

Hey bschuess. Your name always makes me start to think to myself 'the cat in the hat...'! Gah! :)

haha I love hearing GW Bush say newk-yew-lerr. Letterman is on late at night here in Brisbane on Channel 10 and I don't mind the Famous Speeches Made By American Presidents (or something like that) bit... So out of context and so perfectly funny as hell :D

Newk-yew-lerr... teheh!

[nktvn]

Hi nb,

I hear people say conscious in two syllables only, that is, con-scious. In fact, that's the only phonetic transcription in the dictionary, no EE sound there. Do some people say con-sci-ous?

Maybe the word reptile has only one pronunciation. I brought it up because I already heard people say FRAG-IL instead of FRAG-ILE (same thing for HOSTILE). By the way, I did play Mortal Kombat. Not surprisingly, the green ninja was my favorite.

[bschuess]

Maybe the word reptile has only one pronunciation. I brought it up because I already heard people say FRAG-IL instead of FRAG-ILE (same thing for HOSTILE).

You are absolutely correct about these sounds. The dual pronunciation is more common for fragile and hostile than reptile, but all can be heard.

As far as "hostile" goes, I notice that I vary my pronunciation depending on sentence position. I am likely to say:

He was captured by host-il forces.

BUT

He is very host-ile.

I don't think I am consistent with "fragile" or "reptile". In fact, I don't think I ever said "rept-il" until this moment.[/quote]

[giang]

Dear VIEX friends.

I have never lived in an English speaking country, so it's difficult for me to participate in your interesting discussion. I can only share what I know about possible phonetic variation of a word.

1. A word can be pronounced differently depending on its position in the sentence (beginning, end), especially in languages that have pitch and logic intonation.

2. A word can be pronounced differently depending on its combination: there are some phonetic phenomenons, like liaison, assimilation. EX: In Vietnamese, we say "năm" (5), but "mười lăm" (15), or "mười" (10), but "hai mươi"

3. A word can be pronounced differently by different persons on the basics of what we call societal dialect. EX: In Vietnamese, "nào" (which) is pronounced as "lào" for some individuals.

4. A word can be pronounced differently in the same individual in different context, with different audiance or interlocutor. The same example for "nào". A man can say "lào" when talking with a "xe ôm" (Taxi motorbike) but in his office, he will say "nào".

5. And a word is pronounced differently when .... you are hungry or when you are smoking a cigarette or when you are eating with full mouth :D :D :D

Giang

[Khatores]

Hi nb,

I hear people say conscious in two syllables only, that is, con-scious. In fact, that's the only phonetic transcription in the dictionary, no EE sound there. Do some people say con-sci-ous?

Maybe the word reptile has only one pronunciation. I brought it up because I already heard people say FRAG-IL instead of FRAG-ILE (same thing for HOSTILE). By the way, I did play Mortal Kombat. Not surprisingly, the green ninja was my favorite.
I concur with what nb said before..."conscious" was is correctly pronounced with something approaching SH, but it's a difficult sound to make, and when lazy, it naturally comes out as CH (native speakers notice little difference). The same issue exists with "conscientious". People learn pronunciation errors from their parents, and it builds from there.

Usually I'm lazy and say it with a CH, but if speaking to someone in a formal capacity, I try and get it right, just as with other areas of communication.

It really doesn't make that big of a difference, though...English is very forgiving of many subtle errors because we have such a diversity of dialects and immigrant speakers. Most people are unaware of such tiny details, and at least in the US, it is unlikely that anyone will correct you for small errors, because other people will think they are being too critical.

[nb]

Hi nb,

I hear people say conscious in two syllables only, that is, con-scious. In fact, that's the only phonetic transcription in the dictionary, no EE sound there. Do some people say con-sci-ous?

Maybe the word reptile has only one pronunciation. I brought it up because I already heard people say FRAG-IL instead of FRAG-ILE (same thing for HOSTILE). By the way, I did play Mortal Kombat. Not surprisingly, the green ninja was my favorite.
I concur with what nb said before..."conscious" was is correctly pronounced with something approaching SH, but it's a difficult sound to make, and when lazy, it naturally comes out as CH (native speakers notice little difference). The same issue exists with "conscientious". People learn pronunciation errors from their parents, and it builds from there.

Usually I'm lazy and say it with a CH, but if speaking to someone in a formal capacity, I try and get it right, just as with other areas of communication.

It really doesn't make that big of a difference, though...English is very forgiving of many subtle errors because we have such a diversity of dialects and immigrant speakers. Most people are unaware of such tiny details, and at least in the US, it is unlikely that anyone will correct you for small errors, because other people will think they are being too critical.

Cheers Khatores.

Hell yer all the Ninja's owned in Mortal Kombat!

As for my EE sound in conscious etc, I may be drawing that from the way you pronounce conscierge (con-see-air-zh)... so I might be out on that one. As for it being hard to pronounce, for people of English speaking origins it's not an issue but I could see how people who speak more from a gutteral / back-of-throat language like Vietnamese seems to be could cause issues with how to invoke the mouth and lips appropriately.

Frag-il / Frag-ile and hos-stil / hos-stile... yer I'll pay them, but I think saying it as frag-IL etc is just another example of lazyness and perpetuated ill-pronounciations. NEWK-YEW-LERRRR!!!! NEWK-YEW-LERRR!!!!!!

As for English being a forgiving language and the speakers not nit-picky on the quirks of the way someone speaks I believe that is because most people wouldn't even realise that someone was speaking rubbish and making heaps of errors... perpetuated cycle. However, if a foreigner is making a kicking effort and being understandable in what they are saying then who cares if they don't say things the same way the Queen of England says them, but when native English speakers make really really bad errors in the way they speak (like every British actor on TV... hell just tonight I saw someone call their son Keith as KEEF!!! ARRGH! I really hate the British lower-class dialect) well then that really irritates me. I would think that it's not unusual for the same types of people to have a gimp leg and a third arm growing out of their backs etc.

A persons level of education (and possibly intelect) is often completely obvious simply by listening to the way they speak, or more to the point the way they DON'T speak. E.g. CORRECTLY! You will rarely see people with true potential of achieving much in life speaking like a bumpkin, and vice-versa. You rarely see people who speak with limited vocabulary and language skill achieving much in life because their limited language skill is a tell-tale marker that they have some type of inability / disability to understand seemingly basic and fundamental concepts for whatever reason and as such have then been unable to intellectually grow as they don't have the tools and skills necessary to understand and process more demanding tasks that rely on a person having those original skills / tools / understandings.

I guess that's also why it doesn't matter if a foreigner butchers the language a bit if they are still communicating effectively because sure they are butchering the language... but this is a language that they are learning ON TOP OF HAVING ALREADY ACQUIRED THE MASTERY OF THEIR NATIVE LANGUAGE. They are already exceeding the mental skills of most of the world population by mastering a new language that will have conflicting structures and ideas not present in their native language and yet are still able to effectively communicate.

Did I mention I really hate the lower-class Brits. I'm sure there are plenty of nice people there, but the way they speak makes me want to STAB THINGS. Hearing them and seeing them on TV frustrates me because they always appear to be the poster-children for uneducated unhealthy unhappy people everywhere. From what I see on TV it seems that there are pockets of lower-class people who are not getting an adequate education for whatever reason and who are having more children than anyone else and then raising successive generations of badly educated children who will then continue the cycle, and so they are just increasing in numbers while still maintaining their lower-class status instead of the situation getting better. Maybe I'm way off, and I'd be glad for someone to set me straight because what I've seen on TV has left a bad taste in my mouth. :x

On the flip-side, eloquent speaking (attractive) British ladies can be somewhat alluring in the right circumstances (no, not drunk and vomiting into a toilet) :wink:

Anyways, I'd gladly hear newk-yew-ler or nails on a chalk-board all day long than have to listen to the butchering of MOST English words by people who are basically the descendants of the creators of the English language. Keef... Teef... C'MON it's not THAT hard to pronounce a TH sound at the end of a word :evil:

<end rant... for now atleast>

[nktvn]

I know native English speakers would not care too much about these small errors but Vietnamese students very often have to take exams on English phonetics. The CH sound above, albeit practical, is not listed in the dictionary. So even if it is right, English students have no support evidence. That's why I'm picky on this type of things and want to get it right.

[nb]

Please don't say it as con-CHus then... pronounce it with a SH sound. The only reason people say it with a CH is because they are being lazy. SH requires a little bit more effort and takes a slight bit longer to pronounce when compared to CH, so CH is lazy and wrong and DON'T DO IT FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS SANE DON'T DO IT!

NEWK-YEW-LERRRRRRR!!!!

[TroySoy2]

All this talk about "con-Chus" reminds me of conches! :lol:

But wait! Conch, a type of spiral seashell, is actually pronounced "kongk". English pronunciation strikes yet again! :shock:

[nb]

that's like 'chorus' which is something like kor-russ... or if a bit lazy it is like kor-riss. Most people pronounce it as the latter I think, but then again most people are lazy in general. 8)

Conch is different to 'bunch' though... that's a CH sound through and through. Yeah, English is pretty retarded sometimes. I'm sure (or hope) that somewhere at sometime there was a valid reason for such contrasting ways to pronounce or spell things.

Which brings me to a question... is there any difference with Vietnamese words containing the letters ai and ay. As far as I can tell there doesn't appear to be any pronunciation difference between the two, so does that mean that the 2 variations for the same sound is so that words that may sound identical can be written different from each other and make the reading side of things easier instead of having to know the context of the word to know which meaning... a bit like how when listening to Vietnamese it can be easy to think that certain words being said are one thing, when in reality they are a completely different word but which sounds identical, and if you had understood the context of the entire sentence you would not have made the mistake because it wouldn't make sense.

Long question, and here comes.................... ? ......... the question mark.

[nktvn]

'ai' and 'ay' usually sound the same in South Vietnam but differently in the North; the first is pronounced like /ai/ (e.g. I) while the latter (roughly) /ei/.

[Khatores]

Here's some pronunciations...

Conscious (http://japaneserobotarmy.com/words/conscious1.mp3) (CH)

Conscious (http://japaneserobotarmy.com/words/conscious2.mp3) (SC, or the best I could manage)

Reptile (http://japaneserobotarmy.com/words/reptile.mp3)