cuốc / quốc ... qui / quy

[khiflo]

Is there a difference in pronunciation between cuốc and quốc ?

When I hear Vietnameses speaking, it seems to me that, in some certain conditions, words begining by qu- and words begining by cu- have exactly the same pronounciation.
quân - luân [kwân] [lwân]
cuôn - luôn [kwon] [lwon]

So I conclude that [kw] = qu- OR cu-

It's easy when we know that [k] before [won] is always written q- and before [wân] it's always c-

... but when I have [k] before [wok], how can I choose between q- and c- ?


Same kind of problem : is there a difference between qui and quy ?

[nktvn]

Hi khiflo
Northerners would say CUOC like QUOC but Southerners wouldn't. The reason for this confusion is that Northerners pronounce QU- as [KW], which is very close to CU- [KU] whereas Southerners would pronounce QU- as [W].

Someone please add to this information. I'm no expert.

[duy]

In pronunciation:

cuốc = quốc
qui = quy

quân: ex. quân lính = army / soldier
cuốn: roll, roll up
cuốn đi: sweep away
cuốn xéo: go away (very negative and aggressive tone)

quân <> cuốn

duy

[Khatores]

Hi khiflo
Northerners would say CUOC like QUOC but Southerners wouldn't. The reason for this confusion is that Northerners pronounce QU- as [KW], which is very close to CU- [KU] whereas Southerners would pronounce QU- as [W].


In pronunciation:

cuốc = quốc
qui = quy
In that case, how do Notherners tell the difference between similar-sounding words such as cuốc and quốc? Does it all depend on the context?

[nktvn]

Yes. "Cái cuốc" (hoe) but not "cái quốc". "Tổ quốc" (your own country), not "Tổ cuốc".

[doman]

In that case, how do Notherners tell the difference between similar-sounding words such as cuốc and quốc? Does it all depend on the context?

Yeap ! It depended on the context !
Sometimes we make fun about "Tổ quốc - fatherland" and "tổ cuốc - Suamp hen's nest". Both sounded the same.


So I conclude that [kw] = qu- OR cu-
It's easy when we know that [k] before [won] is always written q- and before [wân] it's always c-

... but when I have [k] before [wok], how can I choose between q- and c- ?

Same kind of problem : is there a difference between qui and quy ? (http://khiflo/)
With [k] before [wok], you can choose both (in speech), because they sound as one, but it's important in writing, b'cause they make very different senses.

qui = quy = [kwi] but not [ki]

[khiflo]

Even if I always hear Vietnamese pronounce cuốc likequốc (in the North), I thought that originally, as quốc ngữ has been created like a phonetic writting, there should have been a difference. For example, the difference could have been :
quốc --> [kwok]
cuốc --> [kuok] or [kuwk]/[kuw3k] *

* with [uw] like in cua [kuw], rùa [ruw], etc... I don't really know how to transcribe it.


What do you think?

[doman]

Even if I always hear Vietnamese pronounce cuốc likequốc (in the North), I thought that originally, as quốc ngữ has been created like a phonetic writting, there should have been a difference. For example, the difference could have been :
quốc --> [kwok]
cuốc --> [kuok] or [kuwk]/[kuw3k] *

* with [uw] like in cua [kuw], rùa [ruw], etc... I don't really know how to transcribe it.


What do you think?

I am a Vietnam Northern speaker, and I ensure to you that quốc=cuốc-->[kwok]. In Northern (Hanoian) dialect, they don't have any difference.


With [uw] in cua or rùa, pronounce is the same too, importantly is tone, as in musical notes, cua as sol note, rùa is more lower, as do note.

[Khatores]

There might be a slight difference, if you're listening to different people say it - some people may speak with a slight southern accent or something. You could speak those sounds with a southern accent to differentiate them for yourself, and most Viet could probably still understand you. In fact, that could be a good learning tool for learners like us - using the other dialect to work as a learning tool for varied tenses on homophones.

Many new speakers of English find "ya'll" to be extremely convenient as it allows them a blanket pronoun to use for expressing third person plural for both abstract and concrete uses. No one usually complains. :)

[giang]

Thank you khiflo for an very interesting. I am sorry I did not have time to reply sooner. Here is my answers:

1. the sound /k/ in Vietnamese can be written as
- [k] when followed by i, ê, e (ki, kê, ke: The missionaries, when creating Vietnamese language, were afraid of the confusion that their Freanch pronunciation can bring: ci, cê, ce, so they chose k as an alternative)
- [c] for other vowels
- [q] when followed by an -w-: qui, quê, que, quơ, qua and also quốc, quất, quýt ...

2. As for the case of quốc, for a certain reason, the [u] is pronounced in the North just like it is in the diphthonh uô, so quốc anh quốc are similar. That has happened from the beginning of the 18th centuries with the poet Bà huyện Thanh Quan when she wrote:

Nhớ nước, đau lòng con cuốc cuốc.
Thương nhà mỏi miệng cái gia gia”.

(in her Qua đèo ngang), because she wanted to say quốc gia = nation, and she played with "cuốc" (which is pronounced similarly to "quốc")

3. In the South, cuốc anh quốc are pronounced differently, in which [-u-] in quốc is just an on-glide, when [-u-] is a part of the diphthong.

So, in conclusion, the words are pronounced like that:

Cuốc (North) kuok (South) wuok

Quốc (North) kouk (South) wok


As for qui and quy, it's just the question of habit. Some people writes qui, other write quy. I myself write quy.

[khiflo]

So, in conclusion, the words are pronounced like that:

Cuốc (North) kuok (South) wuok

Quốc (North) kouk (South) wok (I think you meant [kuok]...)
Thank you guys for all these answers. Nice illustration of the question with poestry.

Giang, are you sure for quốc = cuốc = [kuok] in the Norh Vietnam? I just ask an hanoian friend, and it sounds more like [kwok].


I have an other question : when practicing đánh vần with quốc, do pupils say :
u, ô, cờ, uốc... cờ, uốc, quốc... sắc, quốc
or
ô, cờ, ốc... quờ, ốc, quốc... sắc, quốcAnd for cuộc, do they say :
u, ô, cờ, uốc... cờ, uốc, cuốc... nặng, cuộc
or
ô, cờ, ốc... quờ, ốc, cuốc... nặng, cuộc

[Khatores]

This would be a lot easier to discuss in a Skypecast, where we could say the sounds rather than trying to write them. It would also probably have a good attendance, as a lot of people seem to be confused about the intricacies of N vs. S pronunciation.

[giang]

Dear khiflo,

Nobody can be sure of anything. But it was written in a book by Prof. Đoàn Thiện Thuật (author of Ngữ âm tiếng Việt), one of the best phoneticians, who comes from Hanoi.

I hope that you have asked a friend who works on phonetics, or you know, what you feel in your native language may be not correct if you are not major of the field. Also, please distinguish what we call "langue" et "parole" in this kind of discussion. And what we are discussing is PHONETICS not ACCOUSTICS. You know what I mean :)

Giang

[doman]

I have an other question : when practicing đánh vần with quốc, do pupils say :

u, ô, cờ, uốc... cờ, uốc, quốc... sắc, quốc
or
ô, cờ, ốc... quờ, ốc, quốc... sắc, quốcAnd for cuộc, do they say :

u, ô, cờ, uốc... cờ, uốc, cuốc... nặng, cuộc
or
ô, cờ, ốc... quờ, ốc, cuốc... nặng, cuộc

Hehe, it's interesting me !

The first ones are correct, at least in the school the teachers teach that.

* ô, cờ, ốc...will be pronounced as [ok] --> ốc [ok], sốc [sok], dốc[zok], cốc [kok]....
* u, ô, cờ, uốc [uok] --> thuốc [th? uok], quốc [kuok], cuốc [kuok], guốc [guok], ruốc [ruok]...

[khiflo]

Dear khiflo,

Nobody can be sure of anything. But it was written in a book by Prof. Đoàn Thiện Thuật (author of Ngữ âm tiếng Việt), one of the best phoneticians, who comes from Hanoi.

I hope that you have asked a friend who works on phonetics, or you know, what you feel in your native language may be not correct if you are not major of the field. Also, please distinguish what we call "langue" et "parole" in this kind of discussion. And what we are discussing is PHONETICS not ACCOUSTICS. You know what I mean :)
Sorry anh Giang, but I don't really know what you mean. My knowledge about linguistic is very limited, I just begun to care durring this year. I heard about the distinction between "langue" and "parole" (language and speech?) but I can't see the link with the question about quốc and cuốc. And I also don't get the point about phonetics and accoustic. Sorry if my questions are stupid.

[giang]

Sorry anh Giang, but I don't really know what you mean. My knowledge about linguistic is very limited, I just begun to care durring this year. I heard about the distinction between "langue" and "parole" (language and speech?) but I can't see the link with the question about quốc and cuốc. And I also don't get the point about phonetics and accoustics. Sorry if my questions are stupid.

Dear khiflo. Don't say sorry. You may be much better than me in many other fields. As we are discussing on linguistics, I was wrong to evoke notions without thinking that it may be ambiguous to others.

1. Ferdinand de Saussure, in his famous "Cours de la linguistique générale", has mentioned about what is the purpose of linguistic research. In his distinction of the two concepts: langue (language) and parole (speech), he emphasized that linguists must consider social phenomena of the language (language in the society --> langue) and not the personal side (as personal products --> parole). Personal products are uncountable and various, while social phenomena are limited and worthy to research.

2. Phonetics and Acoustics. Phonetics is the system of sound values that we assign to our language. Phonetics is of psychological nature. For example, imagine that you are eating something and your mouth is full, and you say: "Come here". In reality, the phrase "come here" is so deformed that it sounds only like [om ia], but everybody still understand. Why? Because the hear the sounds and put them in a preset value system. Acoustics is different. Acoustics is the science of sound and it describes the nature of the sound. Acoustics can be music, noise or anything than make a sound.

So our discussion (quốc vs. cuốc) should be limited in the field of language (as a social fact) and in phonetics. Becauseyou wil see that thounsands of Vietnamese will pronounce quốc or cốuc in thounsands ways (pitch, contour, register, length ....etc.)

[khiflo]

So our discussion (quốc vs. cuốc) should be limited in the field of language (as a social fact) and in phonetics. Becauseyou wil see that thounsands of Vietnamese will pronounce quốc or cốuc in thounsands ways (pitch, contour, register, length ....etc.)
Ok, now I understand what you meant.

But do you think that my initial question about the difference quốc/cuốc really belongs to considerations about speech and is not worthy to research? It seems to me that the difference quốc/cuốc refers to language questions (language as a system used inside a society), not only to an individual production. In fact when lots of people says more or less [wuok] instead of [kuok], it may not only be a question of personnal production but a question of variation in the language system, isn't it? Even if there are thousands of different [kuok] and thousand of different [wuok] which depend on people's personnal voice, pronounciations deficiences, age, social statut, health, style, intention, mood, etc (which are speech considerations).

[Khatores]

This thread seems to have outlived its original purpose and the point has become moot. :)

[english-learner]

Ok, now I understand what you meant.

But do you think that my initial question about the difference quốc/cuốc really belongs to considerations about speech and is not worthy to research? It seems to me that the difference quốc/cuốc refers to language questions (language as a system used inside a society), not only to an individual production. In fact when lots of people says more or less [wuok] instead of [kuok], it may not only be a question of personnal production but a question of variation in the language system, isn't it? Even if there are thousands of different [kuok] and thousand of different [wuok] which depend on people's personnal voice, pronounciations deficiences, age, social statut, health, style, intention, mood, etc (which are speech considerations).

Formaly, 1.cuốc = hoe.(a gardentool)
2. cuốc = a kind of bird
3.Quốc = Nation.

Speakingy, the northern Vietnamese speak cuoc slightly like quoc . But not all the northerner. The northern people living in the city pronoune cuoc and quoc differently

But the northern people come from the rural areas pronounce cuoc and quoc similarly

The middle and southern Vietnamese pronounce quoc and cuoc totally differently

In the poem that Giang extracted above the author is the northerner and she used "homonymous play game" but different in meanings between cuoc and quoc.

[ChubbyChocobobo]

Speakingy, the northern Vietnamese speak cuoc slightly like quoc . But not all the northerner. The northern people living in the city pronoune cuoc and quoc differently

Nah, I can't tell the difference between the two myself although I've been living in Hanoi since birth.

in the first place, the letter Q in Vietnamese is sometimes referred to as Cu since words begin with Q (or Qu) and Cu are very similar in pronunciation, if not to say exactly the same. In fact, Qu and C are completely different regardless of the regions they are spoken. But Cu is a completely different story. Words begin with Cu like Cuốn and Cuộc are pretty rare and native speakers don't normally notice them. The pronunciation of the consonant C and the U in combined vowels (like Uốn and Uộc) together make a sound very close to Qu. So basically, it's just another interesting coincidence in language and in Vietnamese, in particular.

[paddy8788]

I myself pronounce "quốc" and "cuốc" differently. I am not Hanoian, and so far I came from the northern middle part; but I can speak in Northern Accent and I think I can distinguish many differences that maybe northerners are not concious of.

However, to foreigner, I think it is not a big issue, for Vietnamese people accept these two ways without difficulties; and many of them are not even aware of differences in social communcation. It is up to you to pick the way that you find easier.